The Age of Digital Health Humanity with Philippe Gerwill

Unlearning is a very important point and it's even important skills, you know, that we should not be afraid to say, look, what they learned that that time was the best knowledge at that time, you know, but things changed. We ask always more and more data from the doctor and I'm the last one to say, we need more data, but not from the doctor. The doctor should be the human person in front of you, you know, and I'm a big fan of that. You know, this ChatGPT health stuff came out. Of course, physicians are complaining about that. You know, but they are doing nothing else than listening to the consumer. The consumer go there, they ask the question, if the clinicians like it like it or not, that's what is happening. Hi, welcome back to another episode of the Med Device Cyber podcast. I'm your host Christian Espinosa. Unfortunately, Trevor our co-host won't be able to join us today. He is on site helping a client through an FDA audit. Uh, but we are joined today with a special guest. uh, Philip from coming to us from right outside of Basel, Switzerland. Uh, so you said it's on the border of France and Switzerland. Is that right? Philippe: Yes, that's right, yeah. Christian: I don't remember where we met. I think we may have met MedTech World in Dubai like a... Philippe: ...two years ago. Christian: Yeah, a couple years ago. Philippe: Or last year. Dubai last year, yeah. Christian: Yeah, and then I we ran into each other again uh in Dubai like a month ago before uh the the war started. Uh, So yeah, so you want to tell us a little bit about your background? I know you're a a futurist and a AI expert, which will make for an interesting conversation because cybersecurity is part of the future. AI, obviously. And I know you've done a TEDx talks and written a book and you you know, you've done quite a bit of things. So maybe do a quick intro of yourself and then we can dive into um a few areas also. Philippe: Okay, so first of all, thank you very much for the invitation, you know, very happy to have this this talk with you. And I said we we we met in Dubai uh last year and then we met again in Malta in November and now again in Dubai in February. So, looks like you are regular have regular meetings, so it's very interesting to have the catch up. So basically on my my background, I spent 30 years in cooperation, big corporation, mainly in Switzerland, in global roles, like like 15 years in in specialty chemicals and about 15 years in pharma. I left in 2018, uh, but uh and and then I started to move more into health care. So, you know, from pharma into into health care. But I already did quite some uh events and presentation, keynotes even before when I was working for Novartis, not in the name of Novartis, you know, I I had the disclaimer not in the name of Novartis, but I talked already in 2017, 2018 about, you know, blockchain, IoT, big data at that time. And again, I moved then more into, you know, from more the technology part, you know, more into health care, but of course always the link between technology and and health care. And I'm an international speaker, so so I'm speaking uh around the world, you know, from Australia, South Africa, Brazil. Lastly, of course, I spend more time in in the Middle East, that's also why we met twice. Uh I'm also uh an an influencer, a key opinion leader in health care. Uh so in I talked about metaverse in health health care in the metaverse, I talked about AI in health care, now also longevity. And also, I'm an advisor and a board member for many companies, probably close to 30 companies as as an advisor. Sounds a little bit crazy, but on other side, you probably know uh each company is not asking the same engagement from you. Some of them is just a yearly meeting, you know, yearly board meeting. Some of them are more regular meetings, some are weekly, some are monthly. So I I manage to to get all that under control with the help of AI as well. So, let's move into the topic with that, you know, but AI helped me also a lot, you know, to increase my productivity and to be able to to to have all these uh advisory roles and board roles because I think I could probably not do all that without AI. Christian: So AI has helps you keep organized with all your your um roles with the various companies? Philippe: Yeah. So to be you know, being the organization, you know, being even simple emails and and stuff like that, you know, I gain a lot of time uh even even with with emails, you know, to be quick on that. And maybe another topic uh on AI, you know, without just going going with the flow, but as I said, I'm also an influencer, so for example, uh I don't know if you know Favikon, but Favikon is an AI tool that is basically rating, you know, the content, the creators and all that. And on on Favikon, I'm number two in Switzerland when it comes to uh health tech and and health care expertise. And what I like about that, so I'm just behind my former boss, the CEO of Novartis, he's number one in Switzerland, I'm number two. Christian: What's the name of the tool? Philippe: Favikon, F A V I K O N. So but what I why I'm mentioning that, it's not because of my ranking, but it's basically what I like in that is that it gives you details on on uh and I have an authenticity score of 96.5% which I like a lot because I'm using AI. So it's just a proof that you can have be authentic and using AI. At the end, AI is just a tool. It's still me giving the content, giving my ideas, giving, you know, my my my influence and all that. And at the end, AI is just is just a tool. So, I just wanted to highlight that, you know, because I'm a big promoter of AI and you cannot promote if you don't use it. So I I I'm of course having hands-on on that and I'm very proud to say that it helps me uh maybe even to be more human because I have more time to do my human peace and meeting people, that's also why we met in person, you know, for me it's very important to meet all those people in person. Christian: Is that the ranking based on LinkedIn or all of your social platforms? Philippe: No, it it has LinkedIn, Instagram or let's for for me it's more LinkedIn and now even Instagram is becoming bigger for me, you know, but but I'm saying but it's also some people there because it's it's you can then select, you know, I'm number two on LinkedIn. I'm not number two overall. I think I'm still number three, I think overall in Switzerland in and then you can said be by branch because I'm talking about health care and health tech. You know, and and it's also you have also X, you have also TikTok of course, you know, so of course that's where I'm probably rating lower. Christian: I'm gonna check it out. I brought the website here and it says you can check your performance, um, audience insights and all the things you talked about authenticity, so that's cool. Philippe: Yeah. Even it gives you an estimation of the value of your post for example, when people ask me how much I'm asking, you know, to to do some influencer jobs or whatever. You have also some ideas of of of the range of the value of your post. Christian: Um I know on your LinkedIn profile you describe yourself as a futurist. Can you maybe explain what that means to someone that doesn't understand what a futurist is or what that what that entails? Philippe: Yeah. And and and first of all what should I say, you know, people ask me how I became a an influencer also, you know, initially it was not intentionally. You know, just sharing, you know, I like, you know, sharing content, ideas and all that kind of stuff. And and it is last year that my I opened when you know Abu Dhabi Global Health a week contacted me and asked me uh how much what is my list price as an influencer and I was say oh why I was never thinking about that, you know, and again I use for my for my list price, you know, because I was not I didn't have a list price and it helped me. So I started to make partially more money as an influencer more than as a speaker. But to come back really on the future point is the same. I just I'm very open, like to share and I give my ideas and it happens, you know, it looks like my ideas uh where into the future and and and most of the time happened, you know, so uh it's also something people ask me sometimes, you know, they would like to become, you know, if I can give them the advice, I would love them if they's a secret recipe, I would give it, you know, I'm happy to share and to give the you know that we talk a lot about you know open source, I think I'm an open brain, I'm happy to share and give that, but I don't know sometimes what's happening in my brain, you know, and how how how that works. I would love to to say more but it's just something for me it's uh and back we talk technology AI and all that stuff, the other thing is gut feeling. I I work also on gut feeling and sometimes I cannot explain from a technology point of view Right. how that happens. But what I can say this whole things about futurist, I said I was most of the time right and this kind of things, but it's also becoming challenging for me because of the pace of the changes today, you know? So you you have to challenge yourself much more often when people ask you what is the future, you know, it's not like I prepare now for the 5, 10 next years because everything is going quicker. So really seeing where the things are going, you know, is is is is is kind of also becoming more challenging today. Like everything is challenging for the people because of the pace of of those technologies and everything. Christian: I read this book uh when I was going through my MBA, this was like in 1995. So quite some time ago, I guess that's like 31 years ago. And it was called uh future shock by Alvin Toler. And it's really about the impact of accelerating technological advances on society. And it's it's kind of interesting that book was written over 30 years ago. Uh maybe even longer, I read it over 30 years ago. But it's really a lot that's come true. And one of the quotes from that book that I like is he says the illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read or write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn. which is kind of what you're saying like you we've got to constantly be learning and you realize, oh, this wasn't the right thing to learn, you got to unlearn it and then learn something new and kind of repeat this process over and over and over. Philippe: And and I really like what you say because you said one important point which we don't talk enough about it because we talk about learning, upskilling and all that, but we don't talk enough about un learning. And un learning is even it's important from also technology point of view but even in healthcare, you know it's very important because I think we both go to many events, you know and and and we meet some doctors and all that around us, you know, but those are the savy doctors, you know, 80% if the most of the doctors have no time to go to do the event and to learn all the new stuff. So the thing is for for them it's it's not just upskilling, it's upskilling is really unlearning because you know, go to a doctor now and tell him that what he learned 20 years ago at medical school. It's not about upskilling was wrong, it was the best knowledge at that time, but it was even wrong. So but some of them still work with what they learned at that time, you know? So I think learning is a very important point and it's I think it's a very important skill, you know, that you should not be afraid to say, look, what they learned that that time was the best knowledge at that time, you know, but things changed. But it's as I'm saying something we don't talk enough. I really loved last year when I was in South Africa, you're not giving a keynote. Uh the master of ceremony was a lady from South Africa who is called the unlearning lady. You know, she's working only for that. She's working with companies, you know, to teach them to unlearn. Christian: I I think it's a little bit uh challenging for people to unlearn because I think our ego gets in a way because we've like put a lot of effort in learning something and then we have to realize that it was kind of like no longer valid. Philippe: You you have to get you know it's bringing you out of your comfort zone, you know, what you learn is your comfort zone, you know, so it's difficult, you know, not everybody is ready to get out of their comfort zone. Christian: I know AI is a big aspect of what you work on and you're a KOL, a key opinion leader about health care AI and the Metaverse. I think I know from a health care perspective what the point of theverse is, but maybe you could explain it from your your perspective. Like why is health care AI and theverse specifically important? Philippe: Yeah, it's it's a funny story because it started a little bit in uh in the other sequence around, you know, so it's funny because it's sharing some of the stuff because it's a lot linked also to to our friends, you know, Medtech World. So not two years ago when I met but the year before, uh there was the Medtech World Dubai, it was only half a day or something like that. It was a smaller event. and it was part of the big, you know, Sigma event, you know, of the gaming and the blockchain and everything. And I had to give a keynote about the metaverse, you know, and and it was in the middle of this big event with the gamers all around and I made a joke and I said, you know, maybe you better close the door because the gamers are not going to like what I'm going to say about the metaverse for healthcare. And what I said basically is that uh you know, I don't want the healthcare metaverse to be about, you know, killing and shooting and blue and and all that. You know? But on the other side, what is one of the key issues uh what we complaining about the gamers is basically the addiction. And if I can get people addicted to health care, then I might be happy. You know, so using these addictive immersive environments and all that to to be more aware and and be better also in healthcare uh was at that time what I was looking for, you know, and and again, I'm not hiding, you know, I talk less about the metaverse actually because I'm kind of disappointed that it doesn't pick up in healthcare as as much as it should. Sometimes, you know, I have experience where they have for example, infrastructure issues, you know, which I can't understand because the gamers don't have this. You know what I mean the technology should not be the the issue because there are so many gamers playing together on a network and all that and not having bandwidth issue. So why are we limited when we talk about health careverse and not having being able to have more than 20 people in the same room or stuff like that. So I really think the investment is not in terms of technology and all that. But what happened afterwards I was going to another event a few months later so a pure healthca care event you know where the doctors get you know the CPT points and all that. And to to give a talk about health care. and I was in in this session starting to listen to the other session and really you know physical sessions you know with with people talking about surgeries hands on in the people cutting showing videos and all that and I was thinking what are those guys going to listen to me talking aboutverse, you know, these are really practitioners, you know, with the hand in the body of the people doing surgeries and all that. But indeed they liked it, you know, and and and uh uh they liked what I said about, you know, the whole education, immersive education for nurses, for doctors and all that that you could do in the metaverse. But at the end, there was a uh a teacher for nurses from the Philippines, you know, who said, yeah, Philip, we love what you what you're doing saying and all that, we need that, you know, we definitely need that to to teach, you know, also remotely to our people and all that. Mhm. uh, but who is going to provide the content. And I said, oh shit, you know, I want I I want to the doctors because they have no time. Right. And now she's asking me who will provide the content? And that's where I moved already three years ago to AI discussion because saying AI can help us to provide this content for education, for medical education. So that's how I moved you know and linked all that and of course I said today there is more discussion about AI in health care thanverse in health care. Uh but you know the wholeverse would also a little bit more attention doing Covid, you know, all these kind of things to have the you know, we have no virtual hospitals, you know, they have some in in Saudi, in China and all that. So all these things is still coming but I was still expecting it to to come bigger but again, some of the restrictions I found were mostly linked to infrastructure, to performance and and bandwidth and stuff like that. Christian: It seems like those uh infrastructure bandwidth performance, like you said, those have been solved for gaming. So, I it's just an investment perspective for for theverse in health care from a remote training perspective, uh practice perspective, uh workflow perspective, it seems like we haven't really scratched the surface of theverse. Like it really help transform healthcare. Philippe: There there said, there's really only a few exceptions and stuff like that but the the the scaling is is not really happening for for from that point of view. But again, I say I think it can also be what we discussed before, you know, the resistance, you know, from from those doctors and all that. again, I'm I'm biased, you know, because I I have all these, you know, all my friends, professor Shafi Ahmed and all those guys, these are the savy ones, the one promoting that, you know, but I still think they are the exception. But if you think about, I think you also met, you know, Professor Shafi Ahmed in in in Dubai this year. Uh, he did already some amazing stuff in 2016, you know, with the Google Google classes, you know, which we nobody talks anymore about them really, you know, but in 2016, he did for example a streaming session with more than 50,000 students in more than 140 countries. You know, classroom training a surgeon, you know, so just imagine that these are years of physical training on site that you do in one session, you know, in an immersive session. Do I still don't don't know get all the answer why we were not able to scale that, you know, because it's definitely tremendous because especially if we see that the science is is moving so is you know, is is moving so quickly and all that. So how how do those doctors and medical students, you know, catch up all that, you know? Christian: Yeah, it seems like the metaverse would be a way for them to learn a lot faster and a lot more efficiently than the traditional methods. Philippe: Of course, there's also a hardware challenge. I I agree. when I talk about theverse, it doesn't mean, you know, I I still think we should talk more about theverse without the glasses because you know, some people have uh issues with the glasses, you know, with sickness and things like that. So, uh we maybe uh we should also understand that metaverse doesn't mean always, you know, you can have very immersive experience without having the heavy headset and this kind of things, you know. And and the other thing also I know why the metaverse didn't pick up that quickly, unfortunately it is because of meta. You know, meta was kind of highjacking that, you know, and everybody when people had metaverse, they think meta the company. Which which was partially linked and that's what meta tried to get, you know, but not everybody loves meta, you know, and from that point of view, it might also have heard in some areas, you know, to to leak uh the the metaverse technology, you know, with with the company meta. Christian: Yeah, it's a good point. A lot of people don't like meta and they associate the metaverse with with meta and the meta glasses and everything else. Uh at these events, uh I think Mettech World is the main event at least to one I've seen you at. Um what what are you typically hoping to get out of the events? I know you you said you've met out of your 27,000 followers, like like roughly half of them in person, which is a pretty significant number. Are you just looking to network more or find clients or what is your um reason for attending the events that I see you at? Philippe: Yeah, it's a little bit all of that, you know, but but I think uh the first thing is I think networking is probably the the biggest one for me because again, me the people in person is a different conversation. And I'm sorry to say that for the events, you know, in the events, I spend half of the time and you might have seen that, you know, even not in the room listening to the session, but meeting people outside. So networking is is for me the biggest biggest part, you know, because uh, of course I I always, you know, I'm I'm eager, always open to learn and all that, but honestly, what are you really learning on the 20 minute session on stage? You know, you learn much more the discussion after or before. is a place where you learn probably much more from from those speakers. So it's still having the speakers there, having the right people to meet. you know, but I think it's it's more outside than than uh, doing the session. And and of course basically is that is the networking plus still learning something from that. So it's it's not it's not just uh, you know, it's not just about drinking a glass there, but it's it's really uh, exchanging getting new and then you part of that as well you know in terms of the exhibitors, you know, to to learn some other companies, some other products and things like that which uh you at least you sometimes you can get some hands on rather than just you know, looking the PowerPoint presentation or whatever. Christian: With like the metaverse, AI and a lot of things you're working with digital health care, do you feel like cybersecurity is something people have are starting to pay attention to or is still sort of like in the background? Philippe: I I think definitely we don't talk enough about it. I think it's an assumption we make, but it's maybe wrong that it's, you know, it's it's very critical. I personally I always I try to I don't talk probably enough about it, but I still think that's the issue we we we ignore it's like a given while it is not a given. M. It's very complex. You know, it's very complex. It's it's, I don't know if I should go there, but you know, you you know better than me that it's it's it's actually being under big threat also with computing coming and all that kind of stuff. So what I'm saying it's like many other technologies, you know, it's always evolving and and what is really, you know, even when I work in big cooperation, you know, you have no idea really about the number of attacks that you get. You know, we are talking about thousands of attacks per day, but as a user in the company, you don't see that. You know, you assume everything is under control, but it it's it's it's really uh a huge threat uh for company, but also for for individuals, for people. uh you know, and then just getting spam and all that stuff is is is is a small picture of it. The threat is much bigger and again, we have built some security, some of them are for example with blockchain and all that kind of things, you know, but you know all these encryption and blockchain and all that can be cracked with quantum computing. Right. And again, that's my next point when it comes in terms of the speed of the technology and all that. I still believe quantum computing will come quicker than what some people say, do not say it's already there. You know, we talk us some people talk about five years, 10 years, no, it's not going to be 5, 10 years. It's already starting to be there and maybe in two years you already have some of those issues in front of us. So what we feel is secure today because you think you have encryption, you have we have blockchain is going to be challenged with those new technologies. Christian: Yeah, you bring up a good point and a lot of people don't really consider it is all the encryption technologies we have are relatively quickly going to become outdated and broken due to the the speed of computing with quantum community. So all the things we think are secure will no longer be secure, which will create another sort of panic. always these like waves of uh of change that we have to go through. And and again, as long as we only talk about it, is okay, you know, but once it happens, it may be too late, you know. Uh just I don't want to talk about the actual war in the Middle East, you know, but just think about the Iranian people now without internet, you know, imagine, you know, if if if we have no internet, you know, all banking, everything is going to be an issue, you know, so that's I'm saying, you know, it's all nice as long as it works and we have nice discussion, you know, but if it's stop working, we have a big problem, you know? Christian: I was talking to someone earlier uh a little about about the war in the Middle East and we we like to think it's like contained that area, but the ramifications, the downstream like prices of gasoline, the lack of uh fertilizer to be able to get to the uh the Middle East countries and all these things are really going to have a impact on even the price of groceries, the price of gasoline across the a pretty big degree. So it's we like to think it's a regionalized conflict. No, no, but it's actually global the way our economy works at a global scale now. Philippe: Yeah, yeah, no, no, the whole supply chain and the stuff and again just the price of has but you know it has also another impact on everything, packaging and whatever you have, you know, it's not just the fuel that you put in your car, you know, it's it's much more than that, you know, so. Christian: I think it's also affects uh psychology a little bit. Philippe: Yeah, yeah, I agree it's it's huge, you know, because actually maybe you have seen I just joined recently a mental health startup in Dubai because of that, you know, because it's maybe also it's not about being the right moment, it's because it's needed. So mental health is already the biggest issue worldwide. You know, I I was in Brazil two years ago, I was at a big event, you know, with with 1,200 uh clinician and uh it was a company in Brazil. I have never that you know, it's a company called A, that they they have 40% of the medical of the clinician in their systems. And they are not happy. They asked me what I have seen in the rest of the world. I said guys, I have never seen that one organization have 40% of the clinician in their system, you know? Right. And at that time they were very proud they were launching a functionality in their system because they have 260,000 clinician in their system. So they were they said you know that health is the biggest issue forPs. And I corrected them I said guys, it's not forPs, it's for everybody in in the country and not only in your country. So mental health is really becoming uh for the biggest, the biggest threat, you know, for again, for younger generation, for older generation for for for everybody. So basically what they did, and they implemented kind of a virtual yellow button. So if a doctor feels that you know he's uh could have burnout or depression whatever, he can push this virtual button and then the organization will provide him some some support. Mhm. And I said I'm sorry, I think it's not going to work. Because you know if you are in burnout or depression, you might be the last one to recognize it. And I'm so first of all is recognizing it and second is the stigma of pushing that button, you know, to tell to the organization, I'm in burnout or depression. But on the other side, you have 262,000 clinician in your system. Maybe you can use AI to find some patterns, you know, because you see how the people use the system if they work late or too many hours and these kind of things and trying to use AI by analyzing their behavior in the system and maybe recognize some early patterns of that. You know, so that was already said that was two years or even more than two two and half years ago. So now uh the the topic in Dubai, you know, is is also giving an app to people, you know, about uh mental health. And again, there's not one size fits all because that's exactly the point, you know, everybody say, yeah, when it comes to clinician, yeah, but you need, you know, people, professional support and all that. Yeah, but if they stigma, sometimes people are more open to talk to an AI than to talk to a person they have in front of them. So there's not one size fits all, but just to say that, of course, you know, I I have a lot of friends, you know, in the in in in the Middle East. And the same situation what's happening now and take just the UAE which you know, which was one of the main target from from the Iranian attacks. You know, even if it's safe, they they didn't have a lot of, you know, casualties and all that. But even if you feel safe because you're protected, you know, by by by the great work that the military is doing and all that. But you're sleeping and you hear boom in the, you know you so not everybody is reacting the same way. Some people can sleep, some people cannot sleep. You know, or they wake up with the with every single noise. So again, I think that even if you feel, you know, they didn't have a lot of of of people dying and all that stuff and most of the time it was an accident about the delivery coming down, you know, but but I'm still saying not everybody can cope the same way with such a such a situation. It's not one size fits all for that, you know, so really mental health is it's it's a huge issue, you know, and and it's for many things, you know, I'm just saying of course this kind of situation first of all, I think we talked more and more about mental health as you said during Covid. You know, when everybody was locked in, you cannot do this, you didn't have a social life anymore that kind of things. And and and now that's exactly the similar kind of situation that have also with wars, you know, of course wars is uh maybe we knew before but we didn't talk enough about it, but you know, being in the US you know about all these things about you know the veterans in Vietnam and all that kind of things you know the PTSD and all that stuff they came. I think at that time we talked more about mental health when it comes to the people coming back from war. Now we have everything, we had covid, we have wars, we have everything coming together and again, the younger generation being exposed to that because for example for the wars before, except you're in a, you know, but let's say the the American the younger generation, so let's say really the young teenager were not having mental health issue because of the war. You know, it was the veterans, the people coming back from war that have seen uh things, you know, but because of covid, there was no border everybody, you know, that there was no age limit to be impacted by mental health. Christian: It seems like it's the the challenges are rising with mental health and you know, you we talked about war and covid, a couple maybe contributing factors. Uh, I think there's got to be others though because it seems like it's a it's a big problem today because uh, I get I just got back from Korea Thursday, so a couple days ago, a few days ago, so I'm like still jet lagged and I can't sleep very well. So my emotional state isn't where it needs to be. So I was like on chatGBT and I just asked it and said, hey, I'm not feeling that well. It's like kind of like a little therapy session. Not the major, I'm not like majorly depressed or anything. But I was thinking, you know, it's interesting about using chatGBT, like you said, there's no stigma. No one no one knows I'm using it. I mean, I'm telling you now, but it's also like instantly available. Like if you want to go see a therapist, you have to schedule an appointment, right? So chatGBT or these things are instantly available and you know, you can just keep interacting with it. You know, yeah, it's it's a good point. I think it's also um affects psychology a little bit. Philippe: Yeah, I agree. it's it's huge, you know, because actually maybe you have seen I just joined recently a mental health startup in Dubai because of that, you know, because it's maybe also it's not about being the right moment, it's because it's needed. So mental health is already the biggest issue worldwide. You know, I I was in Brazil two years ago. I was at a big event, you know, with with 1,200 clinician and uh it was a company in Brazil. I have never seen that you know, it's a company called Ao that they have 40% of the medical of the clinician in their systems and they are not happy. They asked me what I have seen in the rest of the world. I said guys, I have never seen that one organization have 40% of the clinician in their system, you know? Mhm. And at that time they were very proud they were launching a functionality in their system because they have 260,000 clinician in their system. So they were they said, you know that health is the biggest issue for HCPs. And I corrected them. I said guys, it's not for HCPs, it's for everybody in in the country and not only in your country. So mental health is really becoming a for the biggest, the biggest threat, you know, for again, for younger generation, for older generation for for for everybody. So basically what they did, and they implemented a kind of a virtual yellow button. So if a doctor feels that you know he's uh could have burnout or depression or whatever, he can push this virtual button and then the organization will provide him some some support. M. And I said, I'm sorry, I think it's not going to work because you know, if you are in burnout or depression, you might be the last one to recognize it. And I'm so first of all is recognizing it and second is the stigma of pushing that button, you know, to tell to the organization, I'm in burnout or depression. But on the other side, you have 262,000 clinician in your system. Maybe you can use AI to find some patterns, you know, because you see how the people use the system if they work late or too many hours and these kind of things and trying to use AI by analyzing their behavior in the system and maybe recognize some early patterns of that. You know, so that was already said that was two years or even more than two two and a half years ago. So now uh the the topic in Dubai, you know, is is also giving an up to people, you know, about mental health. And again, there's not one size fits all because that's exactly the point, you know, everybody say, yeah, when it comes to clinician, yeah, but you need, you know, people, professional support and all that. Yeah, but if there's stigma, sometimes people are more open to talk to an AI than to talk to a person they have in front of them. So it's there's not one size fits all, but just to say that, of course, you know, I I have a lot of friends, you know, in the in in in the Middle East. And the same situation what's happening now and takes just the UAE which you know, which was one of the main target from from the Iranian uh attacks. You know, even if it's safe, they they didn't have a lot of, you know, casualties and all that. But even if you feel safe because you're protected, you know, by by by the great work that the military is doing and all that. But you're sleeping and you hear boom in the air, you know, you So not everybody is reacting the same way. Some people can sleep, some people cannot sleep. You know or they wake up with the with every single noise. So again, I think that even if you feel, you know, they didn't have a lot of of of people dying and all that stuff and most of the time it was an accident about the debree coming down, you know, but but I'm still saying not everybody can cope the same way with such a such a situation. It's not one size fits all for that, you know, so really mental health is it's it's a huge issue, you know, and and it's for many things, you know, I'm just saying of course this kind of situation first of all, I think we talked more and more about mental health as you said during COVID. You know, when everybody was locked in, you could not do this, you didn't have a social life anymore that kind of things. And and and now that's exactly the similar kind of situation that have also with wars, you know, of course wars is uh maybe we knew before but we didn't talk enough about it, but you know, being in the US you know about all these things about you know the veterans in Vietnam and all that kind of things you know the PTSD and all that stuff that came I think at that time we talked more about mental health when it comes to the people coming back from war. Now we have everything, we had COVID, we have wars, we have everything coming together and again, the younger generation being exposed to that because for example, for the wars before, except you're in a, you know, but let's say the the American the younger generation, so let's say really the young teenager were not having mental health issue because of the war. You know, it was the veterans, the people coming back from wars that have seen things, you know. But because of COVID, there was no border everybody, you know, that there was no age limit to be impacted by mental health. Christian: It seems like it's the the challenges are rising with mental health and, you know, we we talked about war and COVID, a couple maybe contributing factors. Uh, I think there's got to be others though because it seems like it's a it's a big problem today because uh, I get I just got back from Korea Thursday, so a couple days ago, a few days ago, so I'm like still jet lagged and I can't sleep very well. So my emotional state isn't where it needs to be. So I was like on chat GT and I just asking it and said, hey, I'm not feeling that well. It's like kind of like a little therapy session. Not the major, I'm not like majorly depressed or anything. But I was thinking, you know, it's interesting about using chat GPT, like you said, there's no stigma. No one no one knows I'm using it. I mean, I'm telling you now, but it's also like instantly available. Like if you want to go see a therapist, you have to schedule an appointment, right? So chat GT or these things are instantly available and you know, you can just keep interacting with it. It's also knowing you more and more because you use it regularly, so it has more information and potentially, you know, your your your GP or or your specialist, you know? So information is there because at the end you you don't get a general answer, you get an answer as Christian. You know, because GPT knows more about Christian then maybe your doctor, you know. So so I think it it makes sense and it's always the challenge what I'm saying, you know, the point is also that we talk a lot about yeah, it should also be you know, augmented you should have a physician with all that, but sing about the people that don't have access to the physician and even you mentioned, you know, even if you would have gone, maybe you would have to wait for one week to get an appointment and all that, but you need it support now as you say 24 hours. Right. You know, so I think and I also made a comment when you know this heart GT health stuff came out, you know that of course physicians are complaining about that, you know, but they are doing nothing else being open AI or Google whatever, they are doing nothing else than listening to the consumer. The consumer go there, they ask the question if the clinicians like like it to not, that's what is happening. You know, so there is there is not only a market for the there is a need to be there, you know, so so and and and the other point is also I can just tell you I got the 50 minutes uh consultation yesterday with a doctor from a company called Gluconage because I did my I did a test, you know, I can it's another example as an influencer where I got the free test. So Glucon Age is a special test they are the only one doing it and basically it's one of these biological biomarker to tell you know your biological age but it's only one example and and because that's still a discussion, you know, what is the right biological age but they measure something. And actually I could have been shocked about the result, I got, you know, because I got this test and you know what the test is saying that I'm 19 years older than my calendar age. 19 years older? Yeah, so I'm 80. Oh wow, you want the reverse to happen? Yeah, see, so the the point is everybody wants to be younger. I I was not surprised by the way I was not surprised by the number and I posted it on LinkedIn, I explained you know also. Uh, first of all, age is a good measurement because you can act on it. You know, if you take your whole genome sequencing, you cannot act on it that's genetic, that's DNA. You cannot change it. But is a measurement of something that you can do you can up to it, you can improve it like food or whatever. and and you can measure it again in three months and six months and if you do the right thing you can see an improvement. So for me it was still an early warning, you know, because I'm not sick, but I have some other details about that that that I'm not surprised because this test is indeed measuring your inflammation. And I know I have an I know some for some doctors I'm a mystery, they don't understand what's happening with me. That's why I do all these kind of tests and try to understand. So I'm not surprised about such a result because uh, you know, also my my my DNA test, my my whole genome sequencing said that I I I have a big resistance to pain. And then people say you're lucky. I'm saying maybe not because pain is a good signal of your body. You know, it's telling something is wrong. If I don't feel it, I may break something. So that could also be linked to this uh gluc acid result, you know, so I'm very, you know, I'm not afraid of hearing stuff like that and trying to more understand, but what I wanted to say because you mentioned that you come back from from Korea, you know, the first things this doctor was asking me if if I'm if if I'm able to act on it and doing it and I said, no, he asked me if I can stop traveling. So traveling is a big issue. You know, because if you know what those guys say in terms of you know, longevity, you need to to have regular, you know, food, sleep and all that kind of things which uh yes, I know it. You know, but when he asked me, can you stop traveling? I said, no. Christian: I I think about that a lot when I'm when I don't travel for a while and I get consistent sleep, and I'm not jet lag. You see the difference? I lose weight easier. I'm I have more energy. I'm emotionally more stable. But you know, getting back from Korea is like a 14-hour time difference. You know, obviously like this morning I got up at 2:30 in the morning. I just couldn't sleep anymore. And uh it it definitely takes a toll. Philippe: No and then that's I'm saying but look it's on one side the other answer to that was also that I love what I'm doing and I'm happy when I wake up in the morning and all that. So I can also stop to do that and then doing a job where I'm boring, I hate what I'm doing and all that. So my health would also have an issue, you know, so Christian: Yeah, exactly. Uh something that you said it was interesting because I use chat GPT all the time and I have a custom GPT. I've written a couple books. I've uh got a lot of data. I fed into my custom GPT. So it does actually know me. I in a from a content creation perspective, I can tell it to write a LinkedIn post and it needs several prompts. But I can say write this like Christian would say it and it knows how my voice is, um which you know, from a from a clinician perspective or a therapist perspective, what you said is uh I didn't really think about it from that angle, but chatGPT does know more about you probably than the therapist you've seen like once every two weeks for half a year, right? So it's going to give you almost better answers to some regard. I mean it's not a human answer, but that is an interesting point of view. Philippe: And you know you went to that too in data and all that. just think about how much data the doctor has about you and how much data has. You know, people even seeing, you know, for example my parents-in-law, they are more than 80 and things like that. You know, they think when they go to the doctor, the doctor has already read their their latest blood test. No, he's opening in front of you. He has not no time to do that before and remember every patient what what they what they do, you know? So again, uh you're right, the your charge GPT is much more personalized than your your own doctor, you know? Christian: Yeah, cuz you're doctors seeing you for 15 minutes and they're for the first one minute they're trying to remember what they saw you for last time, right? They don't have the whole history and it's subject to their memory, someone's handwritten notes, someone's records and everything else. Philippe: And then you come to one of my favorite topic, you know, because I'm I'm saying also, you know, that's the issue, you know, with the GPs, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, you know, a visit and he's spending 80% of that time in front of the screen and not looking at you, not talking with you, checking the data, entering data, updating the information, and my point is, I want AI, you know, to to to support that process because you don't learn to be a doctor to be in front of the screen and entering data. You know? So I want a doctor that is looking again in the eyes of the patient, you know? And we ask always more and more data from the doctor and I'm the last one to say, we don't need more data. We need more data, but not from the doctor. You know, the doctor should be the human person in front of you, you know, and that's what I'm saying. I'm a big fan of that. And my issue actually is in general with AI, not just in healthcare. I'm also advocating for that for education because you have a big risk. Because if you do it well, but the risk that we don't do it well is probably higher, but if you do it well, we can become better human with AI. Which means we should now focus on teaching the kids or younger generation, the human skills. You know, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, cultural intelligence, whatever you want, you should focus on that and let AI do the rest. But the risk that we don't do that, if we don't do that, then our kids are going to become just robots and then we compare robot to robot and we are going to lose the humanity. Because that's the point, you know, just imagine, you know, you are able to judge When you talk about hallucination or wrong information or whatever from ChatGPT is because you have the knowledge from before before AI. But somebody who grows up with AI and doesn't train his brain to continue to work as a brain, you know, we'll have the risk of just becoming not thinking, losing those human capabilities, you know. Christian: Good point because I'm constantly used to getting answers from AI and not coming up with them on my own, I'm probably not learning those critical thinking skills. Philippe: Exactly, yeah. It's it's becoming easy, it's becoming lazy. You know, you're not training your brain, you're not doing that stuff, you know, it's it's a little bit harsh to say that, but it's like, you know, I said I'm I'm older, you know, I I I was at school before the calculator came and then the calculator came and it's the same, you know, I'm not sure how many people today can still do mental, you know, because they used to do you know with the calculator. Christian: Yeah, yeah, it's that's a good point. Philippe: And that's the risk we have, you know, if we if we don't continue to train our brain to to use our brain, we are going to to to not using, you know? Christian: Well, we're coming up on time here. I usually go around the room and ask for like a key takeaway from uh the episode or like a last minute uh words of wisdom. So I'll throw it over to you Philip. Philip, if you have uh a key takeaway. I think we've we've covered a lot of a lot of things and there's some I have a couple. Philippe: I I would still give a key takeaway about something we have not talked too much, you know, but you know that I'm also we touched a little bit about this longevity discussion, you know, and and understanding more and all that. So coming back to the first question about you know futurist and all that people ask me how I see the future of health care. And what I usually answer for the moment is I'm dreaming about a future where I'm not getting surprised anymore by your disease. So that means not that it will be no disease, but that there will be no surprise because I have all the information, the mark, the stuff before some of them you can avoid some you cannot, you know, you can do something about it, but just not being surprised. You know, like I don't want to be diagnosed with with the cancer when I already have metastases everywhere. So I think that's what I would give you another future vision, you know, that we go into this prevention health care, you know, and and that not getting surprised anymore by a disease. Christian: For me, something you said was about uh training our brain to not have to rely on AI. and I feel like I've fallen into this trap a little bit. Like if I'm gonna write an email that is a sales email or marketing email or post, I'll use chat GPT, my custom one, but and then I'll spend like 30 minutes reprompting it, making it get it right, making it sound like me. and I probably could have done it in like 15 minutes if I just wrote it myself from my brain. But for some reason, I've gravitated to to relying on chat GPT even though it's almost more inefficient than just doing it myself. I feel like my skill set is dwindling now to be able to do things on my own. And I grew up before calculators as well. So I did have the mandate to like learn how to use my brain, but you're right, the younger generation they've all they've known is AI. That's a that's a big challenge. Philippe: And you know and the risk is also we talk about health care, we are not always happy uh the the pace of the changes and adoption and all that, you know, but unfortunately education is also not the quickest industry. So changing a curriculum in education uh might also be the challenge, you know, that it might come too late to adapt to what we just talked about now. Christian: Awesome. Well, thanks so much uh for your time today, Philip and uh I appreciate you joining the Med Vice Cyber podcast. And for those of you that were tuned in today, I hope you found value in the episode and we hope to see you in the next one. Philippe: Thank you very much.